Writing About a Living Person: A Conversation with Author Danna Zeiger and Dr. Kathleen Friel

If you’ve been keeping up with our wildly engaging Writers’ Rumpus blog this summer, then you’ve already become well-acquainted with debut author Danna Zeiger and her critically acclaimed new book, Rewriting the Rules: How Dr. Kathleen Friel Created New Possibilities for Brain Research and Disability. If you haven’t yet, you’ll definitely want to check out last month’s fabulous interview with Danna by Carol Gordon Ekster here!

Rewriting the Rules, releasing this month with Millbrook Press, explores the fascinating life of a real-life woman leader in science, Dr. Kathleen Friel, and her groundbreaking discoveries in the areas of brain injury and recovery. Friel, herself, was born with cerebral palsy, learning her own way of doing everything from a very young age. This unique perspective led her to her field of study and helped her become an incredible champion of kids with similar kinds of brain traumatic injuries.

I’ve had the great pleasure of knowing Danna for quite a while now (pronounced “DAH-nah”, not “Day-nah”) through our local writing critique group and the greater kidlit community. I’m very proud to say that I got to read an early draft of this beautiful story and to hear amazing things about her friend and mentor, Kathleen! Well, Danna and I put our creative heads together and thought, wouldn’t it be fun and kind of amazing for me to talk to BOTH of them about their collaboration on this book? And now here we are!

Those of us who write biographies on living people know how very challenging this process can be and how important it is to maintain the right kind of working and collaborative relationship with that person (when that’s possible). It can be the difference between a ho-hum biography and one that really captures the living spirit of the subject…like this one does!

Hilary Margitich: Danna and Kathleen, welcome, welcome to Writers’ Rumpus! I’m so happy to have both of you here together, to share your experiences with one another.

Danna Zeiger: Thank you so much for this amazing idea, Hilary! I’m so excited for an
interview with Kathleen!

Kathleen Friel: Thank you for having us! We’re so excited to share this book.

HM: Kathleen, you’ve accomplished such incredible things over the course of your life. As a differently abled person, you’ve taken your experiences, challenges, triumphs, and used them to help people on a large scale (though scientific discoveries), and also a smaller, more personal scale (through working directly with children who have cerebral palsy). How does it feel to see all of that captured in a children’s book, written by your friend and mentee?!

KF: Thank you so much! I feel incredibly grateful for the chance to share my story. I’m wildly proud of Danna for writing and publishing this book, and of Josée for the incredible illustrations. I have been so lucky to have mentors and mentees by my side through it all. Science is truly a team sport, and I hope readers appreciate that many, many people were involved in the work of my lab.

I am very happy that our discoveries contributed to what is known about cerebral palsy. I hope that our knowledge will assist other scientists in finding better treatments for CP, and perhaps even a cure. I can’t tell you how humbled I feel to be featured in a children’s book!  I love Danna and am still pinching myself —is this real?! Think of my gratitude as silly string after a party: it’s everywhere, and it’s beautiful. And you’ll never get rid of it, ever. It’s in the deepest crevasses of your couch. It’s in your ceiling fan. It’s in your yard. You’ll keep finding bits of it, years later.

HM: That is such a good analogy, Kathleen—I absolutely love it!

Now Danna, how did you first approach Kathleen about writing this book, and what was that conversation like? Many of us nonfiction writers have to work up the nerve to reach out to our real-life subjects and topic experts. You already knew each other. Were you nervous at all?

DZ: I’ve known Kathleen for a while now. Kathleen even came to my wedding! She was my undergraduate mentor, and I’ve followed her journey over the years. I love her and she is such a warm, kind person. AND I was still totally terrified to ask!!! Haha. The truth is, I simply have immense respect for Kathleen, her accomplishments, her science, and her life. I think it’s scary to approach anyone you truly revere and not only ask them if they would feel comfortable with you writing a book about them, but to think you could possibly have a smidgen of a chance of actually getting that story right.

But, as I dove into my dream of becoming a children’s book author, I truly felt the importance of Kathleen’s story, as well as a responsibility for kids to get to know her accurately and deeply. So… I worked up a little courage. At that point, while I’d known Kathleen for a long time, we hadn’t really been in direct contact for a while! Kathleen and I actually went through our e-mails and we went back and forth a little about various scientific milestones, LOL! But it had been a while since we had seen each other.

I think I ended up reaching out over Instagram??? LOL! I did have Kathleen’s number but I wanted a softer reach-out. I think I asked Kathleen about the idea in general and whether she would be comfortable, and if I could ask some questions. Kathleen, as always, was so sweet and encouraging. It probably sounded super bizarre, and let’s be honest, neither one of us knew if this was even realistic and whether I would do the story justice enough that any publisher would be interested. However, I’m so grateful and lucky that Kathleen took the chance and trusted me with her story!

I couldn’t be prouder that of all of my books, this is my debut.

HM: I know, and it’s an amazingly written story—excellent for a debut, in my opinion.

Can you both describe to me what your collaboration process was like? Were there any particularly special moments or aspects to it? Any disagreements? You can be honest!

DZ: The truth is, I relied a lot on my memories and interactions with Kathleen, as well as the stories she had told me. I also scoured Kathleen’s social media (Sorry, Kathleen, but your hilarious sense of humor and your fervent sports loyalty shines there!!) for extra information. Kathleen shared a little but at this point, I think it was hard to tell if this would turn into anything!

The hardest, hardest, hardest part for me was that I was advised not to share my manuscript until a publisher okayed it. I probably asked at every single step along the way, as soon as I got an offer, to when we chatted about illustrators, made edits on the manuscript, signed the contract—when could I tell Kathleen that the book had been picked up for publication and show her the manuscript? My editor is so wonderful and personable. She is diligent and thorough both in science and sensitivity reading, and she also just really cares on a human level. She wanted Kathleen to love the book as much as I did, while also sharing the great news asap.

I think I was able to tell Kathleen that a publisher had agreed to publish the book early on, but I couldn’t show her the manuscript until we had finalized all the edits. (We had this incredible team of two editors and two sensitivity readers, so lots of edits back and forth, which I know truly strengthened this book!)

Kathleen was super helpful, despite not being able to see the actual book yet. She sent pictures of herself as a kid, with family, etc. She took pictures of her hands so that the illustrator could really capture all physical aspects of CP. She answered each and every question the team had.

Once we finished the edits, my fingers were literally shaking as I clicked “send” to Kathleen. It was VERY scary! What if some silly mistake in the science (like when I accidently inverted a spinal cord dissection image for my senior thesis!!) had slipped in? What if I was not describing her experiments accurately? Worst, worst, worst of all, what if I did not do her story justice or told her story in a way that did not reflect her experiences? In the game of “worst case scenario: just how bad could this be?” This was pretty much the absolute worst agony I could imagine.

I shrieked when she replied (true story) that she loved it, with lots of happy emojis!

The best experience, and a real highlight of my life, was when Kathleen and her parents came over for lunch. We projected the manuscript on our TV, and I was able to read the whole book aloud. There were tears, laughs, and lots of clapping by Kathleen—and I felt like maybe, maybe, I had possibly captured at least some part of Kathleen’s story with some amount of justice. Hopefully, I can bring some fraction of Kathleen’s magic to kids.

KF: I didn’t really know what to expect when Danna told me about her book idea! I knew whatever Danna created would be amazing, because Danna is a gifted storyteller. I couldn’t tell others about the book until it was finalized, as described by Danna. Danna would sometimes ask questions from the illustrator, like, ”About the doctor who never wore socks…can you describe his shoes?” That was a question I had to punt to my parents, who didn’t know about the book. They surely wondered why I was asking such detailed questions about a doctor we met nearly fifty years ago!

I am so happy with how the book came out. When Danna and her family invited us for lunch and to see the book, we were mesmerized. It came out better than I could have imagined. I am so, so grateful.

HM: It makes me teary simply thinking about that moment of reveal with all of you there together! That must have been so deeply satisfying for you both.

Danna, as a debut author, was there anything that particularly surprised you in writing a book about a real life, living person? What new things did you learn through the process?

DZ: This is a great question! I think the thing that surprised me most was really how impossible it felt to select stories and anecdotes while excluding others. When I’m working on a biography about someone I don’t know, and especially about someone who is no longer alive, there is a finite amount of information. It feels more challenging to get to know the individual and their personality, but easier in that there isn’t as much riveting, extraordinary material to wade through and make the excruciating decision to omit! That was very, very hard for me. As you can see, I already packed the book as much as I could—including the back matter. And still, there is SO MUCH that did not make it in but is worthy and important.

I already knew Kathleen, but this process was such a gift and helped me get to know Kathleen on a deeper level. The more I learn about Kathleen, the more I am in awe. That only continues—when she and her parents came over for lunch, and I heard stories that had not made their way into her personal anecdotes she’d previously shared with me, or her interviews or social media, I simply continued to be amazed.

HM: She is phenomenally amazing. Sorry, Kathleen, we don’t mean to embarrass you! But I would like to ask you this: what new insights do you hope young readers come away with after reading this incredible book? What are your hopes and dreams for it?

KF: I am so touched by your kind words! I hope readers learn that everyone has the capacity to thrive, no matter how they look or move or sound. We often tell kids to pursue their dreams, but we don’t always give good examples of what that entails. I hope kids see how I was able to take small steps to meet goals and ponder new dreams. I want people to feel like they, too, can reach their goals by taking small, deliberate steps.

I also hope that people with cerebral palsy will enjoy a book about someone who moves like they do. When I was a kid, I don’t remember seeing anyone with CP in books I read or movies I watched. I hope my presence in a book will help others feel less alone if they have a disability.

HM: Absolutely–these things are so, so important for kids to know, Kathleen.

Do you two plan to promote this book together? I mean, obviously you already are by speaking with me today 🙂 But, do you plan to continue collaborating on this project?

DZ: First of all, Kathleen’s mom is a powerhouse and already spoke to all of her local librarians many months ago, LOL! I love her! I would be so honored to promote this book with Kathleen in any way, and any opportunity, time and place, she is willing and able :). We’ve chatted about some ideas already, and I can’t wait to dive in!

KF: I’m excited to share my story! I’ve sent info about the book to all of my former schools. I am thrilled to report that my elementary school will be hosting Danna and I as speakers! My church wants to celebrate this as well—we’ll be sharing the book with children in the parish. I’m definitely open to all opportunities to share this book!

HM: I’m very excited for that! Thanks so much to both of you for talking with me today about your collaborative process. It’s been incredible, and I’ve learned a lot. And Kathleen, you are now officially part of the Writers’ Rumpus family :).

KF: Thank you so much! I’m honored to be part of this beautiful family.

DZ: How lucky are we?? Kathleen is the very best 🙂 . Thanks for this incredible
opportunity, Hilary!

DANNA ZEIGER, Ph.D. is a former biology professor and researcher who enjoys finding ways to make STEM accessible. After rewriting her own rules, Danna is now a homeschooling mama and passionate children’s book author. As a young scientist, she was lucky to be mentored by the master rule-rewriter and subject of this book, Dr. Kathleen Friel. Danna lives in Massachusetts with her husband, three curious children, two pet chickens, and a bookcase always filled with the maximum number of checked-out library books. Rewriting the Rules is her debut book. She is also a 2025 PJ Library Sephardic Stories Initiative Fellow. Learn more about Danna, her books, and her love of all things science at www.dannazeiger.com. 

Dr. Kathleen Friel received her B.A. in Biology at Rice University, an M.S. in Neuroscience at the University of Texas Health Sciences Center at Houston, and a Ph.D. in Neurophysiology from the University of Kansas Medical Center. She completed a postdoctoral fellowship at Columbia University Medical Center. She also received a M.S. in Biostatistics from Columbia University, with a focus on patient-oriented research. Her research focuses on the importance of motor activity in neurorehabilitation.